Wharts and All: Blogging the Full-Time MBA Program at the Wharton School

Thursday, January 13, 2005

Homos Have no Place in Business School [Edit 1]

Props to Classy n Fun for spotting and calling out what too many people were all too happy to gloss over.

The issue: ex-Marine and business school applicant for the class of 2007 discusses his fit at Darden. Are you sitting down? Get this -- they allow the "partners" of faggots and lezbos to join the Partners Club at Darden. Is that sick or what? Why is there not more outcry in the wider business school community at Darden's overly permissive partners policies? Why, in this day and age of "values" are we just sitting here and letting these people live in sin under the guise of respectability? Why are we even allowing homos access to our bastions of prestige? Stupid lawyers meddling in God's business, that's why!

No, really: because (slowly, very slowly, too slowly) we're beginning to open our minds to people who are different than we are. It took us a while to start letting black men vote, took longer for us to let women vote, and even now, we still discriminate against these and other groups. While I appreciate FMGirl's attempt to find something agreeable in everyone, I think she's gone too far with the following:

One thing I've learned at school - some really cool people can say (IMO) some really intolerant things. But that doesn't stop them from being cool. I'm learning that people are more dimensional than their political/moral viewpoints. Sometimes its hard to be open-minded when you perceive someone is close-minded, but finding that place, I think, makes you a bigger person. (source)

Being permissive of intolerance, hatred, or racism does NOT make you a bigger person. It makes you an accomplice. If you witness unethical, illegal or just plain wrong behavior going on and do not dissociate yourself from it, you become part of it. This isn't just me writing: most ethical codes encapsulate the basic idea that if you see something wrong and fail to speak out against it you become party to it.

I want to quote Mr. Lorence in full so that it's preserved for all time as a testament to his bigotry and intolerance:

Erica and I are really excited about Darden. I have basically written off HBS since they have not given me an interview invite. I could get one in January though. The deadline for rejection is Jan 19, 2005. Yes, my ego is bruised, but life goes on. Anyway, Darden seems like an awesome fit. The more we learn, the better it seems. There are lots of clubs that you can join to include the "Partners" Club. I must admit the name rubs me the wrong way since society, to include business school, has now conformed to the accepted method of “cohabitation.” Hence, unmarried “partners” come to Darden who live together. I guess that includes gay people. I don’t have the time to go off on that tangent…See the link above for the clubs. We are committed to paying for the cost to live as close to Darden as we can. We learned the benefit of living on a Marine Corps base and having access to the facilities, being around other families, etc. We want to replicate that in the business school experience. I got a call from Cheryl Jones, the Assistant Director of Admissions. It looks like Erica, Anna Grace, and I will be going to Darden for Darden Days during 8-10 April. This is when many admits go. We have invited our parents to come so that they can see Anna Grace and take her while Erica and I go look for a place to live. If anyone out there reading this lives within walking distance or a short drive to Darden, please email me. If not, please email me anyways. From the ticker counter, I see there are actually people reading this thing. Unbelievable! (source)
It seems as if my views have garnered a sizeable amount of discord amongst the liberal bloggers. My beliefs and values are based on Biblical principles and teaching. Period, end of story. If one chooses to label that as close mindedness, then I certainly deserve and relish such a moniker. Since I’ve lost the desire to spend much time on this blog anymore, I’m not going to post a large amount of text to give further insight. I wish no ill will toward anyone, even those of different beliefs. Just don’t ask me to accept the liberal, “progressive” ideals as they are, in many ways, contradictory to Biblical principles. I’m sure this will spark even more furry, but that is certainly not my goal. I wish you all well in your pursuit of admissions. (source)

On a lighter note, have you taken the Bible Slavery Quiz? Test your knowledge of scripture!

I suppose this is a wake-up call for me as well. I've been hearing for years the stories from friends who have been travelling through Law School and Medical School and who run into racists, gay-haters, misogynists and other anachronisms. I had no right to expect the business school population to be free of such taint, but still, I'm dismayed.

Edit 1: Appended Harry the Nazi image. Intolerance is all fun and games until your mug's splashed on the front page of a tabloid. Why didn't his friends tell dumb Harry that it simply wasn't funny? They were too concerned with kissing his royal ass in the name of networking, is why. Sound familiar?


Blogger dean79 said...

It's a big world out there, and it has plenty of nutjobs running around in it.

FMBAGirl's words ring true to me:sometimes people(religious zealots, say) with incomprehensible beliefs are otherwise genuinely good folks. You're going to meet plenty of people who shake up those convenient schema you've developed over the last 26 years or so...maybe it's best to sit back and observe a little while before you start jumping up and down.

Or you could just go ahead and immediately start throwing rocks. That's pretty funny too... (the zach he is dangerous...hahahha)

1/13/2005 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger bskewl said...

Where have I said that a racist can't be OTHERWISE good or OTHERWISE cool? I'm simply saying that nothing makes racism ok.

I know that you're saying, "Well sure Hitler was a racist, but he was also really, really talented and good at a number of other activities" but it's coming out like, "Well sure Hitler was a racist, but it's not that bad in light of his considerable achievements in other spheres."

The qualities of a person can be judged separately. Just because some distant aunt calls black people "niggers" doesn't mean that she's not a good cook. I love her cooking, but I'm not afraid to shut her down when she gets to spouting hatred.

I don't care how cool, pretty, nice, good, or whatever someone is: they've still got no right bash any group based on sex, race, or sexual preference.

Each action or statement that a person makes can be judged alone and in the context of their whole being. Bank robbery is illegal whether it's the nicest granny in the whole world that does it or the most depraved serial killer. Bank robbery is a granular action that is simply wrong.

I'll forgive your patronizing. I know you don't know where I've been or what I've seen. You're judging me based on these words, and clearly I haven't given you the impression that I'm anything more than a loudmouthed, Ivy-chinned, future master of the universe... with spikey eyelashes.

1/13/2005 11:02:00 AM  
Blogger droodoggie said...

Frankly stated, liberals want to move things along into a one world type of society. Conservatives want to stop the flow of time, period. The problem with this line of thought is that the same people who say they're only homophobes and not racists or crusaders would have been just that in previous eras.

1/13/2005 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger Cal Grad said...

Okay, I think things are are getting a bit extreme here (hmmm ... wat was I expecting from bskewl? haha =).

I agree with FMGirl - personally, I see both sides. I am Christian, so I have many friends who do not believe in Gay Marriages and frown upon homosexuality. Yet, while I was at Berkeley, many of my closet friends are liberal Atheists - some of whom are gay. Does that mean I have to pick a side and persecute the other in order for me to do the "right" thing? I think its when people take hard line stances - such as pure liberalism or conservatism - that progress inhibited.

"Caaaannn't we all just get along?!?" -RK

1/13/2005 03:58:00 PM  
Blogger bskewl said...

I'm with you: stop the persecution.

Suggesting that people should not be able to bring their partners along with them to business school is persecution. I say stop it. Stop suggesting it.

Like I said, I'll still eat my Aunt's pie, but the minute she starts hatin', she gets shut down.

It doesn't take much to improve a bad situation and help more people get along. If you hear racist, sexist, or discriminatory crap, say, "That's not funny. Stop."

You do not need to tolerate hate to "get along" with people. STOP BEING BIG FUCKING WIMPS IN THE NAME OF THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR. Networking does not mean you have to grin and bear hatred.

1/13/2005 04:08:00 PM  
Blogger Panda said...

hey, godwin's rule, guys!
bskewl: you lose this argument by disqualification.

1/13/2005 10:15:00 PM  
Blogger zacharyemig said...

As an aside, where's the outrage about the thousands and thousands of people walking around in Che shirts every day? Last time I checked, Communism killed a bunch more people than the Nazis.

I assume that everytime you see a Che shirt, you do the courageous thing and call its wearer a murderous communist bastard. Fight the power, man!

Zachary (the other one)

1/14/2005 06:00:00 AM  
Blogger bskewl said...

Panda: That rule doesn't apply on days when a member of the royal family is seen on the front pages of newspapers worldwide sportin' Nazi gear. You'll find this clause in paragraph 13 of section IV of the official rules.

Zach: Classism is of course problematic and that's a good question.

1/14/2005 07:09:00 AM  
Blogger Classy said...

Cal Grad: I live in the bloody Bible me, I know all about having friends who don't "believe" in something. That said, not believing in it for yourself and speaking out negatively against another's lifestyle just because it isn't right for you is different! I never said the Marine should be able to have his beliefs. I said he shouldn't publically bash or speak ill against a way of life in the position he's in. If someone isn't infringing on my (or another's) rights, it's not for me to judge or bash!

1/14/2005 08:41:00 AM  
Blogger zacharyemig said...

Shouldn't we applaud that poster for "rebelling" agsint conformity and for speaking his mind? Wouldn't it have been wimpy for him to keep his feelings hidden in an effort to fit in? Or is it only brave to say things that are politically correct?

Somehow I thought the point of the 1st amendment was to make it okay to criticize (or "bash") anyone you want. It's okay for the original poster to wonder why there isn't a club for spouses, and it's okay for you to criticize said post. I think everyone has the "right" to judge everyone else, and if they're eager to post those judgements on the internet for all to see, more power to them.

1/14/2005 09:33:00 AM  
Blogger Classy said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1/14/2005 09:40:00 AM  
Blogger Classy said...

Sorry, hit enter way too soon. Basically, my point is that it isn't a *spouses* club. It's a club for the "partners" of the b-school students and however the couple decides to define that term. Not allowing ALL significant others would be like excluding adopted children from a "kids" club because they weren't both to the parents in a traditional way.

Like it or not, in the business world, there is a need to be tolerant of all others. His blog is a b-school blog, first and foremost, and he can't forget that.

Equal Rights laws for the work place are there for
a reason. Because we will all be, or are, students in b-school, it is safe to say that most of us will be in hiring capacities. Recognizing our own biases and then forgetting them at the office door is necessary. There are MANY things in this world that I don't agree with for myself, but that has no bearing on whether or not they are good for someone else.

1/14/2005 09:51:00 AM  
Blogger Alex said...

any chance you can post an e-mail link on your site ?

1/14/2005 03:00:00 PM  
Blogger bskewl said...

Hi Alex,

zachlee78 at geemail. (Obfuscated to keep spam at bay... This is at gmail.)

1/14/2005 03:57:00 PM  
Blogger Hawkeye said...

Hi Zach,

good post! You mentioned something to the effect of --- a person who sees something unethical happening and still does nothing is an accomplice---. I have a question for you on this specific point.

Naivety Disclaimer:
I come from a country where there is no recognition for gays ( it is not even acknowledged as a lifestyle possibility) . there is no positive or negative opinion on it. Religion does not ban it because you cant ban something which according to you doesn't even exist. Here, "There are no gays" ..thats the perception and so thats reality. So maybe my 'diversity meter' on this issue isn't as high on this issue as that of an average american. Also I am not that well-versed in biblical texts. End Disclaimer

So my question is the people who oppose gays , have been brought up in the reality that one of the following is bad/unethical (a) gay is bad (b) gay is anti-reality (c) gay is some disorder in the human chain of evolution. So instead of keeping quiet and being an accomplice they oppose it, vehemently perhaps.

Now I dont think any of the above 3 reasons is true. I have no bad/good opinion of somthing I dont know very well. I am trying to second guess as to what the reason for such a strong opposition is. But if their reality is defined that way ( like the way your reality is defined as per "liberal" thoughts), then they are behaving exactly like you said you would. Isn't this true?

1/15/2005 06:47:00 PM  
Blogger bskewl said...


The way you pose that hypothetical question is true, and that's no surprise. People who owned slaves were certain that they were on the right side of God's will in doing so. People who opposed suffrage for women were also certain that they were on the side of the "right." And people who currently oppose and discriminate against gay people are likely doing so not because they're inherently evil people, but because they've been indoctrinated by their teachers, elders, family and belief systems to think that they're right to do what they're doing.

Time keeps moving past these people, though, and inevitably, equal rights are afforded to more and more fringe groups. Time will pass and progress will be made and a good portion of those who discriminate against people based on their sexual preference will be embarrassed by their bigotry.

I know a number of former racists and former homophobes. They're not proud of their former actions and words. Most don't like to talk about it or deny they were ever that way. I was a raging homophobe at the age of 14, but then again, I think most boys are at that age... It took some time (and lots of education) for my own maturity to develop to the point where I could accept different sexual preferences.

1/15/2005 07:43:00 PM  
Blogger FMGirl said...

1st of all congrats on the W admit and welcome to the blogosphere.

I suppose I should clarify my comment. Basically I was saying that prejudice does not make someone evil. Life doesn't work like that - it's not definitively right or wrong. You can't put people in a box like that. For instance, One of my classmates is a very cool person, but sometimes he says some dumb ass stuff. Is he evil? No. He's inexperienced. He's ill-informed. He sure as hell is ignorant. But not evil. I think interacting with a me, a liberal black woman will teach him more about questioning his viewpoints than villifying him. Do I call him on the stupid stuff he says? Absolutely. But that's how I handle it - I don't think that makes me an accomplice in any way. Just MHO.

1/20/2005 09:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It was funny to see your blog on this topic. I came across Mr. Lorence's blog a while back. While I cannot wax as eloquently as yourself, I have to say that Mr. Lorence is a factor in my decision of whether to accept admission to Darden (to which I was admitted). I can't imagine what would happen if I were assigned to a learning group with this closed-minded jackass. If Darden admitted him, I am a little worried what my other classmates might be like.

2/03/2005 10:12:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You moron, the author of that particular blog is not saying that homosexuals should not go to business school or that their sexual preferences should be held against them by Ad Com. He is simply saying that we should not take a relationship made up of two men or one made up of two women, and place that relationship on the same level as a man married to a woman.

Let me ask you question, I happen to love TJ. TJ and I live together, we sleep together, I have seen TJ naked, and vice versa. Should TJ and I be allowed to participate in the "Partner's Club" at Darden?

Oh .. PS: TJ is my cat.

2/08/2005 12:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's funny how business schools, its applicants, and students are all about diversity ... diversity in color, in occupations, and skills. And yet if we encounter someone who disagrees with us on the issue of homosexuality, our reaction is not "horray for diversity!" but rather "you are an intolerant bigot."

Reading the messages above (and the replies to it), it's obvious that most of the readers of this blog:
1. have no problem with homosexuality.
2. like to read other people's blogs.

Well if that's the case, I am going to recommend a blog of my own. This blog belongs to someone I met through a mutual friend a while back. I emailed it to a friend of mine (who works as a doctor in an ER) and she called me minutes later to say "I read one paragraph and it made want to vomit."

2/09/2005 01:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think you're a tad confused: appreciating diversity does not mean one must appreciate bigotry.

Would you welcome a Klansman into your class? Would that be a great show of your dedication to diversity?

2/11/2005 05:43:00 AM  
Blogger tom said...

I weep for the future if the likes of you will be in charge. Mercifully you won't. I suck dick, but I also have a mind. Biz school is like vocational school - for the non-thinkers.

2/14/2005 07:11:00 PM  
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